Re: Contra el Perjuicio hacia China

por el_felipe 28/6/2010, 9:14 am

Pero, no ves en el video que son los tibetanos matan a los han y queman las casas?!

Eres ciego?

lusosaylor escribió:
el_felipe escribió:Oh hombre, como que "Tibet a sido invadido por tropas Chinas. Me da igual cuando y como"...somos adultos.

Gonzalo escribió:Tibet a sido invadido por tropas Chinas. Me da igual cuando y como. Fue invadido. Las vascongadas no.

Y también está el hecho de los derechos humanos. Como bien dice lusosaylor, tiene más derechos un cordero que un ser humano.

aqui no hacemos cazerias humanas!! no defiendas a asesinos en este país democratico en el que te dejan residir y expresarte libremente ... te puedes expresar con esta libertad en tu Pais?

por el_felipe 28/6/2010, 9:17 am

,150 economical model households completed in Lhasa09:53, June 25, 2010

Lhasa will allocate one million yuan to build economical model courtyard-style households this year. Up to now, 1,150 model households have been built up, according to Bureau of Finance of Lhasa, capital city of Tibet Autonomous Region.

Economical courtyard-style households are divided into two models-suburban and agricultural models. The suburban model referring to "three grape plants, four juicy peaches plus vegetables planted in the gas house or in the open air" is very common in Tohlung Dechen County, Quxu County, Chengguan District and Dagze County, while the agricultural model of "three peach plants, three walnuts panting, three apple trees plus vegetable planting in gas house or in the open air" has been adopted in Lhunzhub County, Medrogungkar County and Nyemo County.

At present, the seedlings have been planted successfully in Chengguan District, Dagze County, Lhunzhub County, Medrogungkar County and Nyemo County with the survival rate of above 90 percent.

Liu Quanbao, director of Lhasa Bureau of Finance said, "A total of 845,000 yuan has been allocated to the 1,150 model households in Lhasa, which benefits 300 households in Tohlung Dechen County, 200 households in Chengguan district, Dagze County and Quxu county, 100 households in Lhunzhub County and Medrogungkar County and 50 househoulds in Nyemo County."

por el_felipe 28/6/2010, 9:19 am

Lhasa to boogie with the Oct. line dance competition
14:10, June 25, 2010

A line dance competition dedicated to greeting the National Day and Asian Games will be held in Lhasa, capital city of Tibet Autonomous Region, sources from the Regional Labor Union.

"Line dance" is a social way to boogie down and burn calories, which is believed helpful to improve body's coordination and cardiopulmonary functions.

Dancing teams from the municipal labor union, labor unions of various industries or systems as well as regional governmental organs will attend this contest.

Each of the participating teams is required to line up at least 16 dancers. Relevant experts and officials will invited to make presence at the gathering as the judges.

At present, more than 90 participators from 55 enterprises are taking a 5 day full-time training programme, which is the prelude of a line dance mass campaign starting from next month, in a bid to guide local workers and cadres to scientifically ensure their fitness.

por el_felipe 28/6/2010, 9:19 am

claro puedo pegar esto en mi blog en China cuando lo que quiero

por el_felipe 28/6/2010, 9:22 am

Contra el Perjuicio hacia China - Página 2 F200903031403541264810277

mms://media.xinhuanet.com/media3/xizang/100220091706_xz_fwy_Tibetans+celebrate+year+of+iron+tiger.Wmv
Forum on Tibetology held in Beijing
14:48, September 27, 2009

A forum on Tibetology was held in Beijing Friday to greet the 60th anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic of China.

Organized by the China Tibetology Research Center, the forum was attended by 100 scholars and experts in Tibetology from 20 universities, research institutes and publishing houses.

At the forum, they reviewed the development of Tibetology research in the aspects of social development, history, religion, culture and foreign exchanges in the past 60 years after the founding of New China.

A modern disciplinary system of Tibetology has taken shape with many research findings at the academic frontier.

At present, China has 2,000 people engaged in scientific research and publishing of books on Tibetology.

por el_felipe 28/6/2010, 9:23 am

Chamdo to invest 1.3 bln yuan on road construction this year
13:56, June 23, 2010

Chamdo, east of Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) will invest a total of 1.377 bln yuan on road construction this year, sources from Chamdo Traffic & Transportation Meeting held in recent days.

The road construction includes the road extension project of Wuqi-Chamdo section, Chamdo-Bamda Airport of No.214 National Highway, Gyamda-Gamtog Section of No.317 National Highway and some other key projects. And the newly-built projects include the reconstruction of Yela Mountain-Baxoi West section of No.318 National Road, Chamdo Passenger Station.

With an investment of 216.21 mln yuan, the extension and newly-built projects of rural highway construction aimed to give 76.97% of the villages in Chamdo access to the paved roads.

por el_felipe 28/6/2010, 9:28 am

Qinghai-Tibet Railway promotes Tibet's winter tourism
13:30, February 20, 2010

The Qinghai-Tibet Railway plays a crucial role in promoting Tibet's winter tourism by bringing hundreds of tourists to the region everyday, according to the Lhasa Railway Station.

The station has cleared 5 million passengers, with 45 percent of them being tourists from home and abroad, since the railway opened to traffic on July 1, 2006, said Jia Nailin, deputy director of the station.

Apart from improving Tibet's transportation conditions, the Qinghai-Tibet Railway itself has become a distinctive tourist product.

Many travelers choose to take train to Tibet for an experience of the "heavenly road" and for gaining enough adapt time to gradually get used to the anoxic environment on the plateau.

Yu Yungui, a leading official of the Tibet Autonomous Regional Tourism Bureau, said that Tibet will implement a new strategy to promote its tourism by relying more on the Qinghai-Tibet Railway in the next few years.

For instance, Tibet plans to cooperate with Qinghai Province and the Qinghai-Tibet Railway Company to operate a sightseeing-car from Golmud, Qinghai Province, to Lhasa, capital of Tibet.

Meanwhile, Tibet will build a tourism center on its northern Qiangtang Grassland and develop tourist programs such as living in Tibetan families and self-driving tours.

por el_felipe 28/6/2010, 9:35 am

Contra el Perjuicio hacia China - Página 2 09092200371ba956c3783daa4c

As a result of its economic boom, China has amassed a staggering $2 trillion in foreign exchange — the largest reserves in the world — and is beginning to invest significant amounts abroad. Today, 37 Chinese multinational corporations rank among FORTUNE's top 500 global companies, up from just six a decade ago, while 450 out of the FORTUNE 500 American companies have production lines and a business presence in China. China has become the world's largest recipient of foreign direct investment. To fuel its economic boom, China's voracious and insatiable appetite for raw materials has led it to absorb large amounts of global commodities. China now consumes 16% of global energy resources and is the world's third largest consumer of oil.

经济的迅速发展带来的是中国外在资本的激增——惊人的2万亿美元。中国是全世界最大的储蓄国，同时也加快了对外资本投资的步伐。今日，有37家中国跨国企业跻身世界五百强，而在十年前，这个数字仅为6家。美国五百强企业中有450家在中国投资了生产线。中国成为了全球最受投资者青睐的地方。中国对原材料的急切渴求，使它不断的吸收国际市场。中国现在消费了全球16%的能源资源，也是全球第三大石油消费国。

But the economic explosion has come at a high environmental cost. China's air and water are among the most polluted on earth and it is the leading emitter of greenhouse gases. The environmental nightmare is hurting public health. Malignant cancer now accounts for 28.5% of deaths while respiratory diseases account for 13.1%, according to the 2008 China Statistical Yearbook. China's growth has been dynamic, but it is also double-edged.

本

Mao spent his lifetime trying to transform Chinese society in his utopian, socialist and revolutionary vision. He tried to create a "new socialist man" and an equitable society. His regime succeeded in providing the world's largest population with food to eat, housing and basic services. Social vices were eliminated, literacy was expanded, life expectancy increased and infant mortality decreased. These were no small achievements. But Mao's efforts to impose socialism had a deadening effect on urban and rural society alike, as political movements repeatedly harassed different groups of people.

毛泽东花尽一生的心血努力把中国社会建设成他理想中的乌托邦式社会主义的革命国家。他希望培养“社会主义新人”和建立平等的社会。他的体制成功了：中国使世界上一大部分人口有饭吃，有房住，有衣穿，可以享受基本基本服务。社会保障得以完善，文化知识得以普及，生活质量得以提高，新生婴儿死亡率大幅下降。这些不是小的成就。但是毛执意推行社会主义给城市和农村社会都造成了不好的影响，政治的建设干扰了人民的生活。

By the time Deng and his compatriots came to power in 1978, China was traumatized, tired and alienated by 30 years of Maoist experiments and totalitarian controls. Deng's wisdom was to recognize that the state needed to retreat from society and the economy if the creative and entrepreneurial spirits of ordinary Chinese were to be unleashed.

直到1978年邓小平重新掌权，中国已经再三十年毛泽东思想的紧箍咒下变得伤痕累累。邓小平的智慧使他认识到：如果要把中国传统思维以一种有创造性的方式释放出来，必须重新构建中国的社会和经济结构。

Three decades later, Chinese society has fully blossomed. Chinese today experience a wide variety of personal freedoms in daily life that they and their ancestors had never known. Chinese state and society have also reconnected with the past, emphasizing Confucian and Buddhist values. More than 200 million people have been lifted out of poverty and the members of a growing middle class with disposable income travel abroad, invest in the stock market, dine out and decorate their stylish apartments with furniture purchased from stores like Ikea. Access to education has become far more widespread. Some 21 million students attend university today, while an estimated 300,000 study abroad every year. Approximately 206 million Chinese children attend primary and secondary schools. Basic literacy is almost universal in China today, while it was roughly 20% in 1949. Still, China remains a poor country by global standards: some 207 million people still live below World Bank poverty levels on less than $1.25 per day.

三十年后，中国社会得到了全面的发展。如今的中国人充分体验着个人自由，而这对他们的祖先来说是不可能的。中国社会也重新审视历史文化，开始推崇孔子学说和佛学观念。有超过2亿人脱离了贫困，中产阶级人数也逐年上升。他们开始出国旅行，投资股票市场，外出享受美食，以及用新潮的家具比如宜家装修他们的房子。公共教育已经得到普及。现在每年有2100万人接受高等教育，有30万人出国深造。大概有2亿6百万中国孩子接受九年义务制教育。基本的读写能力也已普及，而在1949年这个比例仅为20%。但是，按照国际标准，中国现在还算一个“穷国”：有2亿7百万人生活低于世界银行的标准，也就是说他们每日生活花费不足1.25美元。

With economic growth have come demographic shifts and life improvements. Live expectancy has shot up while infant mortality has plummeted. In 1949 more than 90% of the population lived in rural areas; given the expansion of urban areas, slightly more than half (721 million) do today, according to official statistics. But China's increasing urbanization and spreading industrialization have resulted in a considerable loss of arable land and forcible evictions, sparking much resentment against local officials.

经济增长之后便是人口结构的变化和生活水平的提高。人们的预期寿命变长了，婴儿死亡率下降了。1949年，超过90%的人居住在农村地区；官方统计显示，由于城市面积的不断扩大，现在只有45%左右的人（7.21亿）生活在农村。但是，中国不断扩大的城市化和工业化进程造成了大量可耕地的丧失和人们由于环境而被迫迁徙。这些都造成了人们对当地政府官员的反感。

Chinese intellectual life has also improved, although over time this remains one of the real dark spots of Chinese communist rule. For six decades intellectuals have been persecuted, harassed and forced to conform and create within various boundaries set by the state. They continually probe the boundaries — until the state pushes back. Despite continuing controls, public and private discourse in China has never been so free. The blogosphere and Internet are alive with unbridled discussion — unless and until it crosses the state censor's invisible hand. (Read "Avoiding Censors, Chinese Authors Go Online.")

尽管在过去的一段时间里（译者注：指文革），文化在中国共产党统治之下一直是一片阴霾，但是现今中国人的精神生活水平提高了。过去60年里，知识分子被迫害、被恐吓，他们必须遵循共产党制定的规定，并在其规定范围内进行文化创作。直到博客空间和互联网上人们大肆讨论着，前提是他们逃脱了政府审查部门的无形监控。（请参考《为了逃脱审查，中国作家纷纷进行网上创作》）

While China has made much progress, it still has many blemishes. Treatment of ethnic minorities — particularly Tibetans and Uighurs — is the Achilles' heel of the regime, as violent riots last year and in recent months have clearly demonstrated. Crime and corruption remain serious problems, while cities struggle to provide basic services to the huge "floating population" of 100 million or so migrants. Income disparities (as measured by the Gini coefficient) are now approaching the highest in the world. China has again become a stratified society — just what Mao sought to eliminate. Still, given the unprecedented scale and nature of China's socioeconomic change over the past 30 years, the country's relative stability is commendable.

尽管中国取得了不小的成就，但仍然存在很多不足。处理与少数民族的关系——尤其是对待西藏人和维吾尔族人——是该政权的致命缺陷。去年3月14日的西藏打砸抢烧事件以及近几个月回民的暴动都证明了这一点。贪污和犯罪仍是伤脑筋的大问题，而与此同时所谓的将近1亿的“浮动人口”还没有基本的社会服务。如今的收入差距（以基尼系数来衡量）快要成为世界上最严重的了。中国又变成了一个阶层分化十分明显的社会，而这正是毛泽东想要消除的现象。然而，从过去30年里中国经济社会变化的规模和本质来看，该国的相对稳定还是值得称赞的。

Politics Not as Usual

与众不同的政治

At first glance, China's political system has not changed much since 1949. It is still a Leninist system, dominated by the CCP and an oligarchy of its self-selected leaders, which tolerates no opposition. The Party's powerful Organization Department oversees all major appointments in the country, and one must really be a party member to get ahead professionally. Party and government organs remain essentially as they were six decades ago, copied from the Soviet Union.

乍看之下，1949年以来，中国的政治体制并没有多大的变化。它还是由中国共产党主导的、党内自选领导人的、列宁式的寡头政治，不容许有一丝反对。中共组织部监督国内所有的重大人事任命。而且，只有成为了党员，才能专门从事共产党任命的工作。和刚见过的时候一样，现在党和政府机构都是从苏联那里学来的。

But while much of the structure and essential nature of the system remains largely the same, the substance and process of politics has changed quite a lot. The leadership and the 76 million party members are better educated and their recruitment and promotion is much more meritocratic. Competence is now rewarded. In the past, there existed only two exit paths from officialdom: purges and death. Now mandatory retirement is firmly implemented. Instead of being a totalitarian party dominated by a single leader, the CCP today is an authoritarian party with a collective leadership. The leaders themselves — at least those I have witnessed — are now remarkably self-assured and relatively sophisticated. Marxist-Leninist ideology plays little, if any, role in their decision-making. The policy process is more consultative, although still lacking in transparency. Much emphasis is put on governance and officials at all levels undergo required training in public administration.

尽管中国政治制度的结构和本质都大致没有改变，但其政治生活的具体内容和过程都有了很大变化。党的领导人和76，000，000名党员的受教育水平提高了，在招纳和升职方面都注重任人唯贤。现在有能力者都会受到奖励。在过去，做官只有两种结果：要么被开除出党，要么一直做官到死。如今，强制性退休被严格执行。中国共产党是一个拥有集体领导权的专制政党，而不是由唯一领导者控制的极权政党。领导者们对自己都很有把握，并且变得相对老练了——至少我看到的是这样。就算他们的决策中还有马列主义意识形态的话，其作用也微乎其微了。决策过程尽管还不够透明，但已经更加注重采纳多方意见了；强调执政能力的提高，公共行政部门的各级官员需要接受培训。

On the whole, the Communist Party has proven itself to be remarkably adaptable and open to borrowing elements from different countries and political systems. As a result it is becoming a hybrid party with elements of East Asian neo-authoritarianism, Latin American corporatism and European social democracy all grafted to Confucianist-Leninist roots. The uprising in Tiananmen and across China in 1989 and the subsequent collapse of communist systems in Europe and the Soviet Union were instructive experiences for the CCP. Many lessons were drawn, but the principal one was to remain flexible and adaptable, not dogmatic and rigid. (Read "Beijing Clamps Down After Call for Democracy.")

总的来说，中国共产党已经向世人证明了她对不同国家和不同政治体制的适应性和愿意向他们学习的开放心态。因此，中国正成为一个集东亚新专制主义、拉美社团主义、欧洲社会民主于一体的混合政党，这一切又都嫁接到了儒家思想和列宁主义的根上去了。对中国共产党来说，1989年的天安门事件，以及随后共产党执政体制在欧洲的崩溃和苏联解体都很有指导意义。很多教训可以从中获得，但是最主要的一条是保持政策的灵活性和适应性，不能搞教条主义和墨守成规。

Will the Party's adaptability and the nation's continuing economic growth be sufficient to sustain it in power indefinitely? Perhaps. The CCP's sustenance to date has certainly surprised many leading China watchers. But, going forward, the major challenge to the Party will likely be its ability to deliver adequate "public goods" to the population: health care, education, environmental protection and other social services. Providing stability and ever increasing personal wealth will not be enough to guarantee the Party indefinite legitimacy — it must continuously improve the quality of life of its citizens. This is China's new revolution: the revolution of rising expectations.

中共对时局的适应能力和中国持续的经济增长足以永远支撑其执政地位吗？也许吧。中共所取得的成绩确实让很多高级中国问题的观察者深感惊奇。但是，中共在前进道路上遇到的主要挑战可能是其能否为国民提供足够的“公共商品”：医疗，教育，环保和其他社会服务。创造稳定的社会环境和超高的个人财富对于保障该党的执政地位还远远不够——中共必须不断地提高国民的生活水平。这是中国新一轮的革命：关于外界对其不断增加的期望的革命。

Taking On the World

担负世界的责任

Any consideration of China's transformation since 1949 must recognize the dramatic improvement in China's global posture. Sixty years ago the new People's Republic was cut off from the world, having diplomatic recognition only from a relatively small number of nations. It was excluded from the U.N. It soon became embroiled in the Korean War and the Cold War, which brought further isolation. Despite some marginal trade with Western Europe following the 1954 Geneva Conference on Indochina, China was cut off from international trade, finance and aid. As a result, its economy stagnated.

在考虑自建国以来中国发生的变化时，我们必须承认其国际形象的巨大提升。60年前，新中国与世界隔绝，只与少数几个国家建立了外交关系，还没能加入联合国。迅速卷入朝鲜战争和冷战的中国遭遇了进一步的孤立。尽管1954年日内瓦会议后中国与西欧国家有了一些贸易往来，但仍然被孤立在国际贸易、金融和援助之外。这样的结果是经济的停滞。

Six decades later, China has fully embraced globalization at home and has burst onto the world's stage in a largely positive fashion. It now has both interests and a presence in parts of the world completely new to China — such as Latin America and the Middle East — and enjoys rising international prestige. Beijing has generally managed its relations well with the major world powers: the U.S., Russia and the E.U. It has transformed its regional diplomacy in Asia, reasserted a role in Africa and become much more deeply engaged with international organizations and across a range of global-governance issues. China used to eschew multilateralism, distrusting it as some kind of (Western) conspiracy. While Beijing remains a selective multilateralist globally — engaging on some issues and not others — the broad trend has been positive and in the direction of deeper contributions to the world community.

60年后，中国国内面向全球化，并以积极的姿态登上了世界舞台。在世界上一些对其来说陌生的地方，中国在那里既存在利益又在当地有一定的活动，例如，在拉美地区和中东地区。中国在国际上的名声越来越高了。北京和世界主要大国都建立了良好关系：美国、俄罗斯和欧盟。中国改变了在亚洲的地区外交政策，重新发挥在非洲的影响力，积极参与国际组织和一系列全球事务。中国曾经一直不信任并且回避多边主义，认为它在某种程度上是一种（西式）阴谋。尽管北京仍然是挑剔的全球多边主义者，致力于某些事务，但大趋势仍然是好的，是朝着为国际社会做更多贡献的方向发展的。

China is also more proactive on global security issues ("hot spots" as Chinese analysts like to describe them). When natural disasters now strike, such as the South and Southeast Asian tsunami in 2004 and the Pakistan earthquake the following year, China is there to provide physical and financial assistance. China now has over 2,100 peacekeeping personnel deployed in about a dozen nations worldwide — more than any other member of the U.N. Security Council. This is one tangible expression of China's strong commitment to the U.N. Today, indeed, the PRC may be the greatest advocate of the U.N. among the major powers. (Read "China Takes on the World.")

中国在全球安全问题（中国分析家称之为“火炉”）上也表现得十分积极。自然灾害爆发之后，就像04年南亚和东亚发生的海啸，05年巴基斯坦的地震，中国都会提供人力和财力上的支援。中国现在有2100人的维和人员部署在世界各地的将近12个国家，这已超过了其他联合国安理会成员。这是中国现在严格遵守联合国宪章的表现。的确，中国人民解放军也许是联合国几个主要大国中间最重要的维和倡导者了。（请参考《中国独挑世界大梁》）

In the field of arms control, China used to be a serious proliferator of missiles and missile components, and a significant seller of conventional arms. But, over time, China has signed or ratified the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty and the Biological and Conventional Weapons Convention, has joined the Nuclear Suppliers Group and has essentially adhered to the Missile Technology Control Regime (although it is not a member). This is not the China that the world used to know: a "revisionist" destabilizing power that sought to overturn the international order. Today, the People's Republic of China is deeply involved across the globe and is increasingly an upholder of, and contributor to, the existing international order. China has been a considerable beneficiary of the post – Cold War order, which has allowed Beijing to establish a presence in regions and international institutions that was not previously possible.

在军备控制方面，中国过去曾积极研制导弹和导弹部件，并出售大量传统军事武器。但是，中国已经签订或者认可了《核不扩散条约》、《全面禁止核试验条约》以及《禁止生化武器公约》，中国参与了NSG，基本上遵守了《导弹武器技术控制制度》的内容（虽然还未签署）。这和之前世界对中国的印象有些偏差，一直以来很多人都觉得这个带着“修正社会主义”色彩的国家将给世界秩序构成威胁。今天，中华人民共和国广泛的参与国际事务，也为国际秩序的稳定做着自己的贡献。中国是冷战时期的受益者，获得了足够的时间去重新塑造在世界舞台的形象，这在之前几乎是不可能的。

China's strategic posture is also changing. Its military modernization program has made giant strides in recent years — and they will be on display in the massive military parade in central Beijing on Oct. 1. In many categories China's military is the best in Asia and in some sectors is approaching NATO standards. The People's Liberation Army still has no global strike capacity, however, other than its intercontinental ballistic missiles and cyberwarfare capabilities.

中国的战略姿态也正在发生着改变。其军事现代化已经在近年里取得了骄人成绩，这些现代化的军事装备将在10月1日北京的阅兵式上展现。从很多方面来看，中国的军事是亚洲最强的，而且在一些领域已经接近了北约的军事标准。除了其洲际弹道导弹和网络作战能力之外，中国人民解放军尚未具备全球作战能力。

Still, many countries worry about China's rise and global expansion, even though it has, to date, been outwardly peaceful. Public opinion polls in Europe and the U.S. regularly reflect a negative image of China, while concerns over economic competition and job losses are growing in Europe, Africa and Latin America. Substantial strains remain in Beijing's ties with three of China's most important neighbors: Australia, India and Japan. Even relations with Russia, which have achieved historic highs since the collapse of the Soviet Union, have run into obstacles. This is unsurprising. As Beijing expands its influence and begins to flex its new muscle on the world stage, it's to be expected that China will engender occasional discord with other nations. (Read "The China-India Rivalry: Watching the Border.")

然而，尽管中国对外一直坚持走和平发展道路，很多国家仍然担心中国的崛起和全球扩张会对他们构成威胁。欧洲和美国的民意调查显示，民众心目中的中国均是负面形象。在欧洲，非洲以及拉丁美洲，人们对于经济竞争和失业倒是越来越关心了。北京和其三个最重要的邻居：澳大利亚、印度和日本的关系一直都很紧张。甚至和自苏联解体后发生巨变的俄罗斯的关系发展也遇到了阻碍。这一切都不足为奇。随着北京在世界舞台上影响力越来越大，并在一些新的领域扩大影响，自然中国会和别国产生摩擦。（请参考《中印敌对：紧盯边界》）

Future Shock?

未来冲击
（译者注：原文作者指的是由于社会激变,将来人口爆炸,知识爆炸,环境大变等使人受到压力而导致无所适从的感觉）

Some historians of China think they see the telltale signs of dynastic decline: government corruption, social discontent (especially in the countryside), autocratic rulers and a militarizing state. Some contemporary China experts also voice their doubts — proclaiming the regime fragile and the political system ossified — while economists question how long the dynamic growth can continue.

中国的一些历史学家认为中国开始走下坡路的迹象已开始显现：政府腐败风气严重，社会不满情绪衍生（尤其在农村地区），管理不民主以及国家军事化。当代中国学者也表达了他们的一些疑虑——中国政权的脆弱和政体的僵化——另一方面经济学家们却在质疑这种快速的增长还能持续多久？

While the system and country have weaknesses and challenges, the Sinological landscape is littered with its naysayers and critics. The People's Republic of China has endured for six decades and has overcome a wide variety of serious domestic crises, border wars and international isolation. Its strengths and adaptability have repeatedly been underestimated by outside observers. One thing is certain: China will remain a country of complexity and contradictions — which will keep China watchers and Chinese alike guessing about its future indefinitely.

中国及其体制存在软肋和挑战，而学者对该国的看法不乏否定和批评。中华人民共和国已艰难走过了60年，克服了各种严重的国内危机、边界战争和国际孤立。其力量和适应力一再为外界观察家所低估。有一件事是可以肯定的：中国仍将是一个充满复杂性和矛盾的国家———这一点将使中国问题观察家和中国人自身继续不停地猜测这个国家的未来。

por el_felipe 28/6/2010, 9:37 am

Contra el Perjuicio hacia China - Página 2 Attachment

The conventional wisdom is that China is steaming through the global financial crisis by building on the momentum generated by its 30-year boom. Indeed, ever since it sailed through the last big global crisis—the Asian contagion 10 years ago—Beijing has been feted for uniquely steady helmsmanship in financial storms. So perhaps it's natural for forecasters to assume that the Chinese supertanker of state is not turning sharply now, particularly since it continues to grow rapidly even as other economies sink in the recession. Yet this crisis is different—bigger and more damaging than any seen in generations—and it is exposing limits and forcing change in just about every key piece of the China model: the supremacy of the one-party state, the smart economic management, the export-driven growth, the emerging consumer class, the burgeoning private sector, the headlong focus on growth at any environmental cost, and the drive to build world-class companies. What follows is a look at why these common assumptions about China are increasingly inaccurate or just plain wrong.

Myth No. 1: THE COMMUNIST PARTY IS A MONOLITH.

No, the financial crisis is splitting the party, pitting the rural populists against the urban growth-firsters. The populists include the current top two, President Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabao, who favor slower growth, distributed more evenly to poorer rural Western regions, governed with a more careful eye to protecting the environment and less devotion to the free market. Opposed to them are the elite factions based in urban coastal cities, led by Shanghai, who want high-speed growth, more freedom for the free market, and greater support for entrepreneurs and the private sector. While it's too early to tell which faction will win out, it's clear that the new leadership will take China in new and possibly unexpected directions. "Perhaps the biggest myth about China is that it is only developing economically," says Cheng Li, a China expert at the Brookings Institution in Washington. "In fact, it's also evolving politically."

Myth No. 2: THE COMMUNISTS ARE BRILLIANT ECONOMIC MANAGERS.

On the day in September 2008 when Lehman Brothers fell, China began planning the swift rollout of a $600 billion stimulus that would prove to be the largest (as a share of GDP), swiftest, and, many say, most effective in the world. The results—China continues to grow at a world-beating pace, now 8 percent—have confirmed the reputation of the party elders as macro maestros. While most economists agree that Beijing has done a strong job of solving the short-term problem, which was how to keep growth high enough to offset massive unemployment and subsequent political unrest, there is growing unease about how the massive stimulus could distort the economy in the long term. China has become an economy driven almost entirely by state investment, which in the first half of 2009 accounted for 88 percent of GDP growth—a share for which it is hard to find any parallel, in any country, at any time.

The dangers of this lopsided boom are real. The pro-market faction worries that the liberalization of financial markets and the privatization of strategic sectors (which include most of the richest industries such as banking, telecoms, and construction) are being forgotten in favor of "bridge to nowhere"–style projects. Even government officials now admit that 60 percent or more of the stimulus money has ended up in stock and real-estate markets, fueling worries about dangerous new asset bubbles. In some coastal cities, property sales are three times what they were last year; the Shanghai stock market is up over 60 percent this year. "It's just a stopgap measure—all the stimulus has been concentrated in building new infrastructure and reheating the property sector," says Chinese independent economist Andy Xie.

This could spell trouble for Hu and Wen. The Chinese government debt, once negligible, is now officially about 30 percent of GDP, but some Western economists put the real figure as high as 70 percent. While these figures are still low compared with Western nations (the U.S. debt-to-GDP ratio will reach about 100 percent next year), they have Chinese politicians fretting. Last month Wen told a group of VIPs at the World Economic Forum in Dalian that China's rebound was "unstable, unbalanced, and unconsolidated." A week earlier Chi Fulun, a member of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference was blunter: "Chinese leaders," he said in an interview, "should rethink the country's reform package."

China bulls would argue that China, where 40 percent of villages still have no paved roads to the nearest market, has a huge demand for more paving projects. Yet bears would ask how much China gains from connecting poor villagers (China's per capita GDP is still only $2,000, and much less in rural areas) to the market. "Take a drive on one of those new rural highways; you won't see many cars," says Ming Huang, a finance professor at Beijing's Cheung Kong business school and Cornell University. "It's going to take a long time for this sort of investment to result in any kind of consumption boost." Meanwhile, the stimulus is like steroids for the dominant state sector, which, according to Hudson Institute fellow John Lee, has received some 95 percent of the stimulus capital so far. If it falters, Hu and Wen will be held to account, not held up as brilliant managers.

Myth No. 3: CAPITALISM IS FLOURISHING.

That was partly true until this year. The number of private enterprises in China doubled from 20 million in 1990 to 40 million in 2008. Yet, according to Lee, that number will likely be down to about 38 million by the end of this year, as many private manufacturers go out of business. State enterprises enjoyed huge advantages, even before Beijing's stimulus started shifting more funds their way. State companies have easy access to 3 percent loans from state-owned banks, while private companies pay double-digit rates and are often forced to tap underground markets for funding. Since 1992, growth in private-sector fixed asset investment has been rising at about 10 percent per year, compared with state-sector growth of between 20 and 50 percent. Since the 1990s, the average size of a successful private business in China has flatlined at about 30 employees, due mainly to their difficulties raising capital. It's no surprise that recent market surveys show state companies are bullish on the future, while private-sector businesspeople are decidedly less so.

The last several years of boom growth have given the state little reason to ease its grip on the most lucrative industries, and the crisis may not be enough to force its hand. "Unfortunately, the low hanging fruit has been plucked," says Huang. "We've now hit a point where if you want to do more reform, you are going to have to really hurt some vested interests in the key parts of the economy—finance, telecoms, energy, government bodies, etc." The Chinese state owns more than two thirds of all fixed assets like telecommunications lines, power plants, and real estate in the country. State-controlled companies represent some 70 percent of the major stock markets. And while the private sector still controls a little more than half the total economy, most China watchers believe the stimulus package will turn the tables. "I have no doubt that after this crisis, the state will control a larger share of the overall economy," says Wang Shuo, managing editor of China's Caijing economic journal. "That's bad news for domestic demand, because it means that individuals will control a smaller share of the economy. Households are already supporting state-owned enterprises with their savings, which are given to these mostly inefficient businesses via state-owned banks at very low interest rates."

The crisis is exposing the hidden hand of the state. Back in 2007, the government listed three of its largest four banks on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange in what was described at the time as an effort to make them more commercial, less political. Yet as soon as the crisis hit, Beijing issued instructions to bank heads on how and when to start lending. That prevented the kind of credit-market heart attack that hit the West, but many analysts fear it will lead to a spike in nonperforming loans next year. Now Beijing is meddling in the market in all manner of ways—arresting executives of an Australian mining company after it jilted a Chinese merger partner, supporting state-owned firms that want to walk away from Western derivatives contracts, allowing state takeovers of more efficient private firms. China threw open its doors to capitalism under Deng Xiaoping in the early 1980s, but now "the open door has lost its momentum," says Wang.

Myth No. 4: CHINA IS AN EXPORT-DRIVEN ECONOMY.

If that really were true, why is it that exports are down 20 percent this year, but the economy is still up by 8 percent? "While exports are important to China, in the same way that they are important to Japan or Germany, it's not the only thing going on here," says Fang Xinghai, director of the Shanghai Financial Services Office.

Take a close look at Chinese exports as a growth engine, and they begin to fall apart. While gross exports make up a bit less than 40 percent of the economy, that figure is misleading, says CLSA strategist Andy Rothman, because it overestimates the Chinese take on goods stamped made in china. Most of those goods are merely assembled in China from parts made in South Korea, Taiwan, and other richer countries. Consider a $299 iPod that sells wholesale from the Chinese assembly plant for $150. Only about 5 percent, or $7.50, of that wholesale price comes from Chinese parts and labor. That $7.50 is the net export value, and the real contribution to China's economy. Net exports account for just over 7 percent of China's GDP. That explains why China can still grow when its key Western export markets are in a deep recession.

China depends, as we've seen above, on state spending. The contribution of a growing consumer is real but widely overstated, as Morgan Stanley Asia chair Stephen Roach and many others like to point out. Chinese consumption makes up only 37 percent of the economy, the smallest share of any major nation. And to the extent that Chinese consumers are still more optimistic, and less heavily in debt than Western counterparts, that too has much to do with heavy state subsidies. Lately the middle class has been snapping up flats in Beijing and Shanghai, as well as furnishings and white goods, thanks to the massive, government-mandated increases in bank lending over the past year. Credit was up 32 percent in September, after similar rises over the past several months. Rothman's conclusion, which is increasingly supported by a number of other Chinese and Western economists, is that China can continue to grow at a 6 to 9 percent annual pace based on state and consumer spending "without any contribution from net exports." So much for China's export dependence.

Myth No. 5: CHINESE COMPANIES WILL RULE THE WORLD.

True, many big Chinese state companies are scouring the world, hunting for distressed properties, creating the illusion that the crisis is advancing China Inc.'s global ambition. But the buyers are mainly government-run oil and mining behemoths, seeking out cheap resources in other developing nations, and they have little potential to become global brands. "Quite simply, there is little real innovation or branding ability in China," says Beijing University professor Michael Pettis. The obstacles include weak legal protection for intellectual property and contracts, and an educational system focused on rote learning and metrics rather than creativity and innovation. In typical Chinese fashion, the financial crisis prompted edicts from Beijing that firms should go forth and innovate—subsidies are now being doled out for new patents filed. Yet as any economist or investor will tell you, patents rarely translate directly into real companies with new and unique technologies, and top-down efforts at creating startup companies can't compete with the sort of spontaneous germination of ideas that happens in places like Silicon Valley or Cambridge.

Meanwhile, China's Wild West atmosphere doesn't encourage the long-term thinking necessary for building global businesses and world-class research and development. "Blurry rules and corruption fosters short-term thinking here," says Huang. "Entrepreneurs don't feel safe—there are many examples of the government taking over private businesses or changing the legal landscape—so they take their profits as quickly as they can." Meanwhile, richer state companies (think Sinopec or Chinalco) use their giant war chests to make acquisitions to feed domestic demand, rather than investing in research or branding. Why spend money to become more globally competitive when you have a monopoly in the world's most populous country? Result: even China's 800-pound gorillas won't replace Western blue chips any time soon.

Myth No. 6: CHINA PUTS MONEY BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENT.

China's growing tendency to ignore market forces is working in one surprising field: clean technology. For years China has resisted pressure to help control carbon emissions, insisting that it needs to develop first, and that its per capita emissions are far below those of the West. Now, as China has come to realize that its people could be among the hardest-hit victims of global warming, Beijing has mobilized its resources, as perhaps only China can. With the help of generous state subsidies, Chinese companies have, for example, taken the lead in solar cell production, and are powering ahead in many other areas. This fall Chinese leaders announced new targets for reducing carbon emissions, which, if met, would put the nation in the lead on combating climate change by 2020.

China has made green technology a national priority, launching major research initiatives on solar-powered batteries and wind technology. Its green stimulus package amounts to $218 billion, the largest in the world, resulting in the founding of dozens of alternative energy companies within the last year. China already produces more power from renewable energy than any other nation in the world. Meanwhile, the recession and uncertainty about the direction of oil prices has slowed the momentum of green investing in the West. This doesn't mean that China can clean up its own act soon: to meet energy demand, it continues to build old-fashioned coal-fired plants at the rate of one a week. But it may become the leading manufacturer of clean energy technology for the rest of the world.

None of these changes should come as a real surprise, on closer look. In past crises, China has always shown a bold willingness to adapt. Its original opening to global markets emerged from the turmoil of the Cultural Revolution. Its last big opening emerged from the Asian crisis, when it joined the World Trade Organization in 2001. Now the changes seem to be moving in the opposite direction, back toward a more insular economy, run by the state, less welcome to private and foreign business, and with one big surprise. If the ruling faction fails, there is an alternative waiting in the wings.

por paucatala 28/6/2010, 9:46 am

Una de las normas de este foro es el de escribir los textos de un tema en la lengua con la que se empieza dicho tema.

por lusosaylor 28/6/2010, 9:51 am

Bo, todo esas inversiones monetarias y en infraestructuras son pura propaganda!! muy positivas para llevar mas chinos a nepal como hizo stalin en la USSR o Franco con españa, cambiando poblaciones de unos para otros territórios neutralizando tribus y poblaciones enemigas.
lo que nepal quiere es autodeterminacion y livrarse de los arreos chinos.

saludos

aqui tienes un poco de propaganda de la que a ti te gusta Contra el Perjuicio hacia China - Página 2 Icon_evil

por el_felipe 28/6/2010, 10:22 am

Senor,

Ya estoy convencido de que no tienes una actitud neutral para este tema. Si el ferrocarril facilita el transporte, asi mas chinos y turistas extranjeros traen bienes e inversiones a Tibet, y mas tibetanos salen de las montanas para conocer el mundo. Pero ustedes se oponen a todo perdiendo la razon.

Hablar antes de pensar.

Liu, Bo

lusosaylor escribió:Bo, todo esas inversiones monetarias y en infraestructuras son pura propaganda!! muy positivas para llevar mas chinos a nepal como hizo stalin en la USSR o Franco con españa, cambiando poblaciones de unos para otros territórios neutralizando tribus y poblaciones enemigas.
lo que nepal quiere es autodeterminacion y livrarse de los arreos chinos.

saludos

aqui tienes un poco de propaganda de la que a ti te gusta

por el_felipe 28/6/2010, 10:30 am

Bueno si usted si pensando que Bush y Obama son los mejores, ya dejamoslo. Caballero

Pero si ud. ve lo del embargo, de las guerras Irak y Afganistan, del Guantanamo, del Cuba y del Corea del Norte, espero ud. mantiene su actitud.

Los paises que han sido invadidos por EEUU no comparten la misma idea.

lusosaylor escribió:Bo, todo esas inversiones monetarias y en infraestructuras son pura propaganda!! muy positivas para llevar mas chinos a nepal como hizo stalin en la USSR o Franco con españa, cambiando poblaciones de unos para otros territórios neutralizando tribus y poblaciones enemigas.
lo que nepal quiere es autodeterminacion y livrarse de los arreos chinos.

saludos

aqui tienes un poco de propaganda de la que a ti te gusta

por tercios. 28/6/2010, 12:15 pm

Desde el punto de vista europeo nos deberia ser imposible criticar a EEUU, puesto que es gracias a ellos que Europa se ha desarrollado para formar parte del primer mundo (plan Marshall) y que tenemos regímenes democráticos estables.
Aparte de eso debo decir que el sistema capitalista mixto que tenemos actualmente es el mejor inventado hasta ahora, mucho mejor que el comunismo. Y también mejor que el extraño comunismo chino, que sirve para vender y monopolizar el mercado internacional a base de vender barato a costa de salarios extra-pequeños a los trabajadores y usar materiales de mala calidad, pero se acabará cuando los obreros se den cuenta de que pueden cobrar más.

En fin, pregúntese si siendo China primera potencia mundial nos iria bien a todos. Por cierto que seguramente sera China la próxima potencia.

por Vellido Dolfos 28/6/2010, 12:57 pm

Hasta ahora me había abstenido de comentar en este hilo, y probablemente lo no lo volveré a hacer porque en estos momentos no me apetece discutir con un individuo adoctrinado en una régimen totalitario para emitir consignas propagandísticas nacionalistas y defender dogmas totalitaristas.

No me malinterpretéis, no me creo superior a él. No estoy pecando de soberbia sino de pereza. Simplemente, no me apetece discutir porque veo poco probable que la conversación llegue a algún punto.

Solo decir que:

Las sociedades democráticas tienen defectos, muchos, pero tenemos algo que vale más que cualquier cosa, algo que no tiene precio: SOMOS INDIVIDUOS LIBRES.
-Libres para OPINAR. Podemos criticar sin miedo: criticar al Gobierno (en este foro lo hacemos todos los días Laughing

), criticar a la oposición, criticar al sistema mismo.
En un régimen comunista, al que disiente de la linea oficialista ¡se le intenta aplastar!

Por vivir en una democracia precisamente puedo criticar que mi Gobierno puedo criticar, si quiero, que mi país haya enviado tropas a esos países (Afganistán, Iraq, etc.) Y lo podemos hacer en la calle, en internet, desde los periódicos o la tele.
¿En China hay algún periódico que se meta con el Gobierno por lo del Tíbet?
¿Podrías salir a protestar por ello a las calles de Beijin sin miedo a represalias?

-Libres para DECIDIR juntos nuestro destino como nación(es), en las urnas. Puede que nos vaya mal, pero será porque nosotros nos habremos equivocado ¡tenemos derecho a equivocarnos! Al menos no nos dicen cómo tenemos que vivir (aunque últimamente se está instalando en Europa poco a poco una visión del Estado paternalista del Estado, propia de regímenes socialistas, que no me gusta nada).

Somos ciudadanos, no súbditos tutelados por unos políticos. Los gobernantes son gente como nosotros escogida por nosotros de entre nosotros y nosotros podemos quitarles el poder que les hemos dado.

Seremos menos competitivos (económicamente hablando) pero porque somos algo más que una máquina de producción teledirigida.

¡OJALÁ ALGÚN DÍA ESTO SEA UNA REALIDAD PARA TODOS LOS PUEBLOS DE LA HUMANIDAD! ¡QUE TODOS LOS PUEBLOS PUEDAN DECIDIR SU DESTINO Y ELEGIR CÓMO QUIEREN SER GOBERNADOS! ¡QUE TODOS LOS GOBIERNOS TRATEN A LA GENTE COMO PERSONAS Y NO COMO MERA MANO DE OBRA! ¡LEVANTAOS!

HE DICHO

************************************************************

Dos puntualizaciones para Bo Liu:
-No se que historia te habrán enseñado en tu país, pero es FALSO que el Tíbet haya sido parte de Chino desde hace más de 700 años. Por aquel entonces perteneció al Imperio Chino, sí, pero durante un corto periodo de tiempo, y el Tíbet volvió a ser libre durante más de seis siglos hasta que hace poco más de cien el ejército chino lo INVADIÓ después de repartirse la región con las potencias coloniales europeas.
El tiempo del colonialismo acabó y China no se ha retirado del Tíbet-

-Estas usando incorrectamente la palabra perjuicio continuamente. La confundes con PREJUICIO. Perjuicio significa otra cosa diferente.

por el_felipe 28/6/2010, 1:19 pm

Pero, hombre, nunca estoy en favor de la totalidad, sino estoy totalmente en contra del sistema totalitario. Pero China ya no es totalitario, admito que en 1989 SI, pero ahora ya NO.

Por que ahora la economia es alta y la sociedad es estable, por eso podeis gozar de la democracia. Pero si vas a America Latina, la democracia solo produce sinfines de miserias para los ciudadanos, algunos tienen derechos a votar porque otros no tienen ni para comer. Este es la democracia!

Ademas, solo vosotros son HUMANOS, y otros NO. Los europeos pueden elegir su presidente, pero el presidente elegido por los iraquies deberia ser derrotados! Por eso los americanos pueden utilizar el petroleo y lanzar guerra, y los paises emergentes no tienen derechos y deberian ser eliminados! Son los chinos que decidimos cuando y como vamos a realizar la democracia, desde la educacion que recibimos toda la humanidad, se dice que NADIE DEBE INTERVENIR EN LOS ASUNTOS INTERIORES DE OTROS.

Sobre la historia de TIBET, ya no me gustaria hablar nada porque son inutiles para gente que no sepan nada de historia, ni quieran estudiar, es fracaso de tu educacion. Te peso un mapa, son de la dinastia YUAN hace 700 anos. Tibet fue invadido por tropa britanica de India por corto tiempo y luego China recupero su soberania.

Dalai Lama seguramente quiere recuperar su trono, porque fue aristocrata en una sociedad teocrata y poseia millones de esclavos, para recuperar su vida basada en la sangre y muerte de tantos tibetanos.

Contra el Perjuicio hacia China - Página 2 Map-yuan-dynasty-full

Contra el Perjuicio hacia China - Página 2 Map-yuan-dynasty-full

MAPA DE DINASTIA YUAN (1206)

MIRA LA PARTE DE TIBET, SI ESTAS INTERESADO TU BUSCAS "MAPA CHINA ANTIGUA" TU MISMO.

http://www.newser.com/story/93157/dalai-lamaslave-master.html (DALAI LAMA Y SU HISTORIA COMO POSEEDOR DE ESCLAVOS, EN INGLES)

por el_felipe 28/6/2010, 1:21 pm

Prior to the 1950s, Tibetan society was still extremely closed and backwards, and the production level and the development of the entire society were at an exceptionally low level. Numerous serfs and slaves suffered from hunger and cold and had difficulty making a living. Countless Tibetans died from hunger, cold, poverty or disease. American Tibetologist Tom Grunfeld pointed out that according to a survey in eastern Tibet in 1940, 38 percent of households had never drank tea, 51 percent could not afford ghee, 75 percent often had to take weeds mixed with cow bone soups, oat or bean flour as their meals. What the Dalai Lama wants to defend is only the joy and happiness of the minority separatists. What he wants to destroy is the peace, comfort and safety of the majority Tibetan people. Read the full article.

por Vellido Dolfos 28/6/2010, 1:32 pm

por el_felipe 28/6/2010, 1:42 pm

amigo, que gracioso humor que tienes?
Dinastia Zhou fue hace 3000 anos. No se entonces tus ancestros ha nacido en Africa o todavia no.

Vellido Dolfos escribió:

por lusosaylor 28/6/2010, 7:23 pm

lusosaylor escribió:Bo, el mencionar todas esas inversiones monetarias
en infraestructuras son pura propaganda!! muy positivas para llevar mas
chinos a nepal como hizo stalin en la USSR o Franco con españa,
cambiando poblaciones de unos para otros territórios neutralizando
tribus y poblaciones enemigas.
lo que nepal quiere es autodeterminacion y livrarse de los arreos chinos.

saludos

el_felipe escribió:Bueno si usted si pensando que Bush y Obama son los mejores, ya dejamoslo. Caballero

Pero si ud. ve lo del embargo, de las guerras Irak y Afganistan, del Guantanamo, del Cuba y del Corea del Norte, espero ud. mantiene su actitud.

Los paises que han sido invadidos por EEUU no comparten la misma idea.

No soy un pacifista y tampoco he estado a favor de las invasiones que tu comentas; bien por el contrário; vengo de un páis que fue dando a lo largo de la história, soberania y autodeterminacion a territórios en los que tubo algun tipo de domínio.

Portugal siempre ha tenido a China como ejemplo de justícia y lealtad; ejemplo de eso, hasta 1999 en Macau las fortificaciones y cañones protegian de ataques desde mar, dejando la retaguardia abierta a la amiga china. Fue devido a la ayuda prestada por los portugueses a la dinastia Ming y a su emperador Zhengde que nos fue ofrecido en 1540 la "leal Macau" como território que pudiesemos habitar para siempre en gratitud por haver ayudado a acabar con la pirateria en los mares de china.

esa era la china con la que nos identificavamos y la que apreciavamos y convivimos durante 500 años muy a gusto; donde estan esos valores chinos? que ha cambiado en el pueblo chino? esta nueva china sin valores y respetos, no nos identificamos para nada!

Saludos

por TRAJANO.X 28/6/2010, 8:43 pm

Pero vamos a ver una cosa Felipe: Con todos los defectos que pueda haber en una democracia ¿Conoces algun pais donde rige éste sistema, en el que se fusile a la gente, y encima le hagan pagar la bala que acabo con la vida del fusilado, a su familia?
Si tan bien se vive en el "Paraiso Chino" ¿Como es que el mundo entero está lleno de emigrantes de esa nacionalidad?.
Yo vivo en un pueblo muy pequeño, en el que apenas llegamos a los cinco mil habitantes, y hasta aqui hay inmigrantes chinos. Por consiguiente, no creo que se pueda vivir tan bien en China, cuando todo el que puede, sale de alli.
Un saludo.

por Vellido Dolfos 28/6/2010, 9:08 pm

el_felipe escribió:amigo, que gracioso humor que tienes?
Dinastia Zhou fue hace 3000 anos. No se entonces tus ancestros ha nacido en Africa o todavia no.

Vellido Dolfos escribió:

¡Oh, Dios! ¡ES UN GIF! Tienes que quedarte un rato esperado.

por lusosaylor 28/6/2010, 11:48 pm

el_felipe escribió:

Vellido Dolfos escribió:

amigo, que gracioso humor que tienes?
Dinastia Zhou fue hace 3000 anos. No se entonces tus ancestros ha nacido en Africa o todavia no.

que pasa BO? de donde piensas que deriváis vosotros?; los ancestros de los chinos tambien provienen de los mismos humanos de africa. o tienes alguna otra teória menos peluda y mas digna?, jejeje

por Vellido Dolfos 29/6/2010, 4:29 am

lusosaylor escribió:
que pasa BO? de donde piensas que deriváis vosotros?; los ancestros de los chinos tambien provienen de los mismos humanos de africa. o tienes alguna otra teória menos peluda y mas digna?, jejeje

por Gonzalo 29/6/2010, 9:19 am

En el fondo de mi corazón siento que, en verdad, solo podemos compadecernos de estas personas.

Lo peor de todo no es que defiendan que un país como China no es un país absolutista... ¡es que de verdad lo creen!

Solo podemos sentir lástima...

por Contenido patrocinado